[ Free eBook ] Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?Author Frans de Waal – Replica-watches.co

[ Free eBook ] Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?Author Frans de Waal – Replica-watches.co

A New York Times Bestseller Astonishing Has The Makings Of A Classic And One Fantastic Read PeopleWhat Separates Your Mind From An Animal S Maybe You Think It S Your Ability To Design Tools, Your Sense Of Self, Or Your Grasp Of Past And Future All Traits That Have Helped Us Define Ourselves As The Planet S Preeminent Species But In Recent Decades, These Claims Have Eroded, Or Even Been Disproven Outright, By A Revolution In The Study Of Animal Cognition Take The Way Octopuses Use Coconut Shells As Tools Elephants That Classify Humans By Age, Gender, And Language Or Ayumu, The Young Male Chimpanzee At Kyoto University Whose Flash Memory Puts That Of Humans To Shame Based On Research Involving Crows, Dolphins, Parrots, Sheep, Wasps, Bats, Whales, And Of Course Chimpanzees And Bonobos, Frans De Waal Explores Both The Scope And The Depth Of Animal Intelligence He Offers A Firsthand Account Of How Science Has Stood Traditional Behaviorism On Its Head By Revealing How Smart Animals Really Are, And How We Ve Underestimated Their Abilities For Too LongPeople Often Assume A Cognitive Ladder, From Lower To Higher Forms, With Our Own Intelligence At The Top But What If It Is Like A Bush, With Cognition Taking Different Forms That Are Often Incomparable To Ours Would You Presume Yourself Dumber Than A Squirrel Because You Re Less Adept At Recalling The Locations Of Hundreds Of Buried Acorns Or Would You Judge Your Perception Of Your Surroundings As Sophisticated Than That Of A Echolocating Bat De Waal Reviews The Rise And Fall Of The Mechanistic View Of Animals And Opens Our Minds To The Idea That Animal Minds Are Far Intricate And Complex Than We Have Assumed De Waal S Landmark Work Will Convince You To Rethink Everything You Thought You Knew About Animal And Human Intelligence

10 thoughts on “Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?

  1. says:

    The answer is no we are no where near smart enough to figure out how smart animals are Having escaped the Dark Ages in which animals were mere stimulus response machines, we are free to contemplate their mental lives The prevailing theory used to be that animals are all instinct driven, mute and empty headed but that couldn t be further from the truth While it is true that animals are influenced by their instincts For example One can train dolphins to jump synchronously because they do so in the wild, and one can teach horses to run together at the same pace because wild horses do the same. But mere instincts cannot explain the overwhelming evidence for cognition Frans de Waal uses both scientific articles and anecdotes to show what researchers and the general public used to think about animals thoughts and how that s changed over the years From what I gathered while reading this novel we only think animals are dumb because we are absolutely horrible at testing them.So many times, animals have failed a test thus placing them in a lower intelligence bracket because humans aren t testing either the right way, the right thing or used an inherently unfair method Testing the Right Way For the longest time, scientists thought that elephants were among the few species that couldn t recognize their own faces Their experiments consisted putting a mark with a washable dye on the animal s body then showing that animal a mirror If the animal became interested in the dot, that indicated that they recognized their own faces Monkeys and apes and so many other species could do this but not elephants In reality, the scientists just didn t account for the size factor they were using mirrors only large enough to show the elephants their feet or part of their face.Once that was rectified, the elephants were fascinated by the mirrors going so far as to stand on their rear legs and lean against the mirrors much to their keeper s dismay Testing for the right thing Researchers tested primates on facial recognition skills and found that they were inherently poor at distinguishing subjects However, the scientists were testing the primates on their ability to distinguish humans When they later tested the primates on recognition of other primates, they excelled Much like humans, the primates were far better at telling apart their own species than another Using inherently unfair comparisons Waals points out that so many studies focus on what makes humans so different from other animals and yet many of the comparisons are inherently unfair Would anyone test the memory of human children by throwing them into a swimming pool to see if they remember where to get out And yet that is a routine test for rat memory.Overall, this book did not disappoint It was a bit dry at times and did feel a smidge repetitive but I did enjoy my time reading it and I came away feeling like I learned a ton Audiobook CommentsRead by Sean Runnette I m a bit torn about the narration while it was rather well done considering that the material may be considered dry by some However, I noticed that the reader had a faintnot quite a lisp but the way he pronounced certain words kept taking me out of the story.Blog Instagram Twitter

  2. says:

    Yes, apparently, but if you are ready to look, and know how.De Waal, a primatologist and ethologist who has studied animal behavior and cognition for decades, takes us on a guided tour of what animals can do Recognizing emotions, having memories across time, having an identity, using tools, cooperation, and humans have all of these, but a surprising amount of animals have some or many of these too I d expected many of the chapters to be about primates, but other animals too and to astonishing degrees There s Ayumu, the Japanese chimpanzee who beats humans in a memory test after seeing numbers for a fraction of a second, or the case of apes at a Dutch zoo who propped a log up against a fence, climbed over it, and then got into a local restaurant to grab all the food stores Or the mice who hid their pain from a male researcher, but cried out to be held to a female one The whole book is full of these stories.What matters is understanding a different species Umwelt a term from the biologist Jakob von Uexk ll How is it possible to understand, or at least attempt to frame, an animal s subjective world, centered around its own needs It would be silly to try and ask mice to count, but it would make sense for it to know where food is or where other mice are For primates without opposable thumbs, it would not make sense to give them tools designed for us, but ones for the shapes of their hands And so on Humans have a grasp of these abstract concepts which were thought unique to us, but animals have a surprising degree of understanding and adaptation.

  3. says:

    I cannot give this book less than three stars because it contains lots of totally fascinating information about animals the greater and lesser apes, whales, octopus, fish, birds and elephants for example The author is a Dutch primatologist and ethologist He is the Charles Howard Candler professor of Primate Behavior at the Emory University psychology department in Atlanta, Georgia, and director of the Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center Primate social behavior is his central focus but this book goes beyond primates The latest research about the abilities of animals and animal cognition is exciting Our knowledge concerning the science of animal cognition, self awareness, understanding, cooperation, inequity aversion, conformism and empathy has progressed far from the early days of behaviorism The book starts with a review of the history of the science Nevertheless, I did have problems with this book I found it poorly organized I would have appreciated clearer chapter titles so you knew what the coming chapter would contain The chapters had diffuse titles such as Cognitive Ripples, Know What You Know, Talk To Me The same experiments are mentioned several times with additional information added the second time around Neither was there organization in terms of the species covered one gets a smattering of species in each chapter Quite simply the book was put together in a messy fashion The author has a central message, namely that experiments must be designed to fit the animals being tested and that we must stop overestimating human cognition and underestimating other species cognition These became the author s mantras I don t disagree with what he is saying but the preachiness with which the messages were delivered became annoying The book is said to be written for the layman One minute he addresses his readers as if we were children Soon after the lines read as academic bickering The author comes across as thinking he knows all and negatively viewing others The tone is negative, which gets tiring The result You have to wade through a lot to get to the fascinating ground information One complaint in comparison to the books listed below, the presentation of the experiments in de Waal s book does not let readers get close to the animals You do in the books listed below Too often in de Waal s book we are told what particular experiments prove, rather than letting readers judge for themselves So yes, I do have a bunch of complaints with the way the book is organized, its tone and manner of presenting the data The information presented is nevertheless thorough and fascinating I spoke of the author s negative tone This is further enhanced by the audiook narration performed by Sean Runnette The words are clear but the tone is one of sad despondency Related books which could be of interest Beyond Words What Animals Think and Feel 4 stars Mind of the Raven Investigations and Adventures with Wolf Birds 4 stars Wesley the Owl The Remarkable Love Story of an Owl and His Girl 5 stars Alex Me How a Scientist and a Parrot Discovered a Hidden World of Animal Intelligence and Formed a Deep Bond in the Process 3 stars I mention the book on Alex only because it is covered in de Waal s book I didn t love it The Genius of Dogs How Dogs Are Smarter than You Think 4 stars Love, Life, and Elephants An African Love Story 3 stars

  4. says:

    Instead of making humanity the measure of all things, we need to evaluate other species by what they are.The field of animal cognition needs to take a lesson from the field of human education the multiple intelligence model Not every student will be good at every part of the curriculum, but it s a rare person who isn t talented at anything Physical talent in sports or a love and understanding of nature count as kinds of intelligence, acknowledging that the academic subjects are not necessarily the be all and end all.De Waal writes clearly and engagingly about the history of the study of animal intelligence, pointing out the many prejudices that humans bring to this endeavour Human subjects are tested by a member of their own species and in surroundings that they are comfortable in Animal subjects are being tested by a member of another species whom they are not necessarily interested in and in a captive setting that adds to the stress of the situation Ask any university student about the stress of exams and they will tell you that it is not an ideal way to take tests.He points out that these studies are hampered by the human tendency to try to set ourselves outside the animal world, to set a barrier between us and the rest of nature He also discusses our relationship with the apes, especially our close link to the two chimpanzee species Being very hierarchically focused, like chimps are, we spend a lot of time trying to set ourselves at the top of our perceived hierarchy of nature We truly need to let go of this need to be superior and to evaluate other species according to their own talents.When I was a volunteer nature educator, I was often asked about animals, How smart are they I guess people were hoping to feel superior to other species My answer was always, Just as smart as they need to be to survive Each species is adapted to its own environmental niche and is expert at living there I would recommend Mr de Waal s books to anyone interested in animal cognition or in ape studies in general.

  5. says:

    The book is about clever experiments conducted to show that primates, crows, elephants, etc possess a sense of the future and the past, that they can a plan for the future, and that they unequivocally make tools Moreover the experiments discussed here demonstrate that animals have a sense of compassion, altruism and reciprocity just like us at our best All of the experiments with primates are interesting, but the ones with caching birds, like Jays who inhibit immediate gratification for the sake of future need and the ones that proved Ravens know each others voices and have a hierarchical status system, I found especially intriguing Then there s Irene M Pepperberg s Alex, the Gray Parrot, who can verbally respond to addition and subtraction tasks done in his head The studies about animal metacognition thinking about thinking are gobsmacking Mainly the author s targets here are the many psychologists, philosophers and other experts who argue that only humans are endowed with such imaginative and creative capacities I liked that the author, who s worked with primates for 30 years, has an acerbic view of humans that seems entirely missing in his discussion of primates See note, page 219 All my highlights and notes give a peek at the content of this brilliant book.

  6. says:

    Well, some people are smart enough to know how smart animals are but some people are not It depends on whether experimenters can put themselves into the frame of the animal they are studying Testing an animal in the same way as one might test a human just doesn t cut it And this is the main theme of the book that researchers must test animals in accordance with their biology and move away from human centric approaches.Frans de Waal has written a fabulous book about researching the intelligence of animals De Waal is a zoologist whose specialty is primates, and he has been studying them for many years He is very well qualified to write this book, not just about primates, but about many types of animals.So many researchers are quick to point out the differences between humans and animals De Waal came up with a metaphor for this approach that of an iceberg The vast underwater part of an iceberg represents the enormous similarities between humans and primates, while the above water tip represents the differences Many researchers look exclusively at the differences, while not even trying to notice the similarities They are continually trying to answer the question, Mirror mirror on the wall, who is the smartest of them all , but this in de Waal s opinion, this is just a waste of time.People can even be intimidated by animals There is a story about the ape house in a British zoo, where the chimpanzees were trained to have a genteel tea party The chimps had excellent manners and correctly imitated a polite society tea party But, human spectators were intimidated and complained, and even ignored the spectacle So, the zookeepers retrained the apes to have a naughty tea party, spitting and throwing tea around and causing havoc and the human spectators loved it There is an Aesops fable about a crow and a pitcher The water level in the pitcher is too low for the crow s beak to reach it, so the crow drops small pebbles into the pitcher, in order to elevate the water level to the point where it is drinkable And yes, you guessed it This behavior has been replicated in a laboratory Even though crows do not have a language at least, not at any level of sophistication even approaching that of humans crows can think An animal does not require language in order to think And actually, neither do humans need a language in order to think.This book is chock full of examples of animals that have thinking capabilities that are truly astonishing For example, there is a bird named Alex that could respond to questions about objects, defining how they are different, their material composition and not by rote, as they were new, unfamiliar objects, and in the absence of the experimenter And, Alex could count and do addition An experimenter would hide objects under three shells He would lift up the first shell revealing the objects, then cover them up and lift up the second shell, and so on Then, Alex would speak the number of objects he saw in total A crow named Betty could bend straight wires into a hook in order to retrieve food from a tube the first evidence of a non primate making a tool Apes can have sudden insights for solving problems, they are capable of inferential reasoning, like understanding the meaning of the absence of something They are capable of deception And when it comes to tools some apes have been observed to carry around a toolkit consisting of five pieces of sticks of various shapes, each of which is necessary to be used in sequence to retrieve honey Apes can spontaneously learn to brush their teeth, ride bicycles, light fires, drive golf carts, eat with a knife and fork, peel potatoes, and mop the floor Apes that are reared with humans learn best how to imitate humans They can imitate better than young children, because they can selectively imitate actions that have favorable consequences, ignoring actions that are unfavorable.Apes are capable of deception, as has been shown in a multitude of experiments For example, orangutans are excellent escape artists They slowly dismantle their cages over a period of many days They keep the loosened screws in place or hidden, in order to fool the humans until they are ready to make their break for freedom.Many experiments with chimpanzees fail to result in meaningful conclusions Often experimenters try to understand the Theory of Mind of chimpanzees, that is, to understand how they see humans But this often fails because chimpanzees think of humans as omniscient.There are so many other examples of animal cognition There are elephants who can tell human languages apart, as well as the gender and age of human speakers A female orangutan used a lettuce leaf like a hat, using a mirror to aid in decorating herself Octopuses seem to play with new, unfamiliar objects Dolphins are capable of metacognition, that is, to think about thinking And, dolphins have unique vocal signatures, which they use like names to call one another Then there is the experiment that involved teaching a chimpanzee to recognize numbers written on a computer screen He would be shown nine single digit numbers for just a fifth of a second, after which he would press the keys in the proper order that he saw for just that split second The crazy thing is that humans are only capable of remembering five such numbers in similar experiments, even after training The point of the book is to show that you simply cannot call one animal species smarter or dumber than another, or smarter or dumber than humans on the basis of individual capabilities Each animal species has different abilities, many of which exceed that of humans De Waal also blasts away at the behaviorists, who maintain that what an animal thinks, that is to say, the internal state of animal, is totally irrelevant The only thing that matters, so they say, is external stimuli and conditioned behavior De Waal shows over and over again, the backwardness of this attitude, and the incorrect conclusions that they reach concerning animal behavior.This book provides a wonderful perspective on animal behavior The distinctions between animals and humans are not so strong as we would like to believe.

  7. says:

    I m going to skip this one Tried for a few weeks to get through it Interesting Two stars means it was OK But did not rock my boat If it s meant for plebs like me, then write it in a language I would understand I guess it s meant for a different audience A great scientific exercise.

  8. says:

    Sometimes it can be hard to review a book for what it is instead of for what you wanted it to be This is probably most true of fiction, but science books also vary in the level of depth to which they explore their topic It can be tough as a reader to judge what audience the author is after, and that can lead to some discrepancy in the technicality of the reading material than expected Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are was a book that delved far in depth into the field of animal cognition than I had expected I wasn t really in the mood for the scientific rigour presented here school being demanding enough but was able to appreciate the book nonetheless de Waal presents this book as a series of experiments that serve as counterpoints to those who suggest that animals are incapable of emotion, cognition, planning, etc He also spends a great deal of time with the historical precedents for the field s current way of thinking.It works as a sort of bird s eye view of the field of animal cognition Your mileage will vary depending on how much this sort of thing interests you Have you ever wondered about what your cat is thinking as you type away at your reviews or cozy up for an extended read Well, you re less likely to be satisfied by the type of experiments herein It s like, I wonder how the mating patterns of meadow voles speaks to how animals view monogamy Having a bit of a background in behavioural neuroscience, some of this was stimulating and familiar, while other bits didn t do much for me.I also decided to give this one a shot in audio, and the narrator does a perfectly passable job There s no flair or enthusiasm, but it does make for a straightforward relation of facts I also decided to read this as a counterpoint to an audiobook I read and reviewed earlier this year, The Hidden Life of Trees On a personal level, I was engaged with the animal than the plant de Waal does a good job of convincing the reader to lay down their species perceived superiority in favour of a empathetic view of animal cognition So, I m definitely not sorry I listened to this book However, I wish I d gone for something a bit lighter that relied less on a series of experimental descriptions As it stands, this is a book that psychology majors and the lay public should enjoy It provides as concrete science as possible in the field of psychology and doesn t make sensational extrapolation from the available data If you re looking to broaden your understanding of the field of animal cognition, I can think of no better primer

  9. says:

    For awhile Woodland Park Zoo in my hometown was in the midst of creating outdoor environments for most of its animals where they could run and hide through tall grasses and shrubbery, climb trees, jump on rocks, or swim in ponds, or swing on tires With every visit I saw fewer and fewer animals lived in small cement cages I had bought an annual pass which entitled me to go to the zoo whenever as often as I liked I worked near the zoo.I used to go to the gorilla display at the Zoo during my lunch hour on occasion There was one gorilla who seemed to enjoy sitting near the window which separated us humans from its outdoor compound I saw it come closer to the window whenever children were among the crowd of observers, looking to interact with some excited child Since there was a solid glass pane between us and the gorilla, it had to be something beyond food that interested the gorilla to want to play with the children Whenever I stopped there, that gorilla looked at me Really, truly looked at me I knew it was conscious, curious, interested intelligent I often saw my cat watching me, especially when I did something unusual like trip over my feet , eyes bright with curiosity, or sometimes boredom, or disgust, and sometimes he seemingly was wondering what the heck Yes, he really did seem to have a variety of expressions from the age of two which mirrored human emotions appropriately when I did stuff No, it wasn t about a food reward or a coat brushing or an upcoming dreaded bath he had a set of very unmistakable reactions that were different on those occasions Outside the house, I noticed his face set into a mask of inscrutability however, inside my house, he was physically and facially expressive, friendly and talkative and abusive While it was obvious his skillset of expressions was based on a small set of black and white emotions, one of them was clearly amusement, especially when it was at my expense Sometimes I know he was feeling schadenfreude Bastard Really He was a bastard unknown parentage Cats.It is beyond me why so many scientists for hundreds of years have denied animals have cognition, memory, or planning skills At least some scientists today are finally agreeing with us ordinary folk that many animals have brains which are active with emotions and thought, motivated by learning and feeling, much the same as us even if not for the same causes or interests The Magnetic Resonance Imaging machine MRI has allowed scientists to see that when dogs see their owners, for instance, they have brain structures that activate similar to the locations in human brains which light up with pleasure Cats won t sit still in MRI machines Frankly, I can t wait until someone comes up with a machine to see cat brains in action Fortunately, many scientists have lately taken on the task to observe, document and correlate actions of many animals to thinking, memory, planning and pleasure with experiments acceptable to most of the current scientific establishment Frans de Waal s book Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are describes many of these experiments, observations and, to me, proofs many animals are intelligent, albeit an intelligence dependent on the physiognomy of their bodies and on the things needed for their survival in their accustomed environment.De Waal believes experiments are often designed from the human environmental paradigm, or Umwelt, which gives results when interpreted that show a lack of ability or a lack of certain high level aptitudes, skills and brain function However, designing the test appropriate to an animal s life and body shows remarkably different and actual high level cognition, even if it is a cognition only appropriate to the animal s needs when in an environment it understands.From page 13 The credo of experimental science remains that an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence If we fail to find a capacity in a given species, our first thought ought to be Did we overlook something And the second should be Did our test fit the species The book is written in plain English describing how animals responded when tested appropriately using tests designed for their interests and abilities Many animals hear sounds and see light and smell scents outside of our organic spectrum Some of them have a completely different brain construction Octopuses have a distributed brain, for example Corvids, apes, elephants, dolphins, parrots, octopuses and many other animals can pass three stage puzzles using a variety of tools, such as a bunch of rocks and sticks in different lengths and shapes, combining the tools provided in a self designed order to get a food tidbit, despite no training Apes will make up a bag of their own tools, hidden and saved for when needed Even sheep, who have a reputation of incredible stupidity, can recognize pictures of other individual sheep who look to us all alike Holy cow um, holy sheep Cognition should be interpreted from an animal s viewpoint of the issue What we see as a problem might be nothing essential to their world, so maybe they don t care enough to solve it Animal brains might work out a different resolution to a problem than we would set up, too Plus, human bias can affect how scientists design tests For example, in testing toddlers to compare with an ape s response children might be held in their mother s lap in a comfortable playroom, while the ape is behind bars in a metal cage in a laboratory all alone, separated from other apes and separated from its natural environment.The author does not only describe laboratory tests and recorded animal responses in this book He tells about B F Skinner s 1904 1990 theory which until recently was the predominate one that animals are simple mechanical robots with one computer program running on a loop a stripped down version of the human one Mixed into lab examples refuting Skinner s theories are stories about actual observed behavior in zoos, aquariums, owner s homes parrots and corvids and in the wild The stories are very amusing, amazing, and interesting I have always known animals are smart, especially when in their own backyards so to speak, but their brainy capacities are demonstratively far than what I knew The chapters are organized to describe associated proofs of certain animal capabilities and which highlight the part of brain cognition which is being explored.The author is the C H Candler Professor in Emory University s Psychology Department and director of the Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center The book has extensive Notes and Bibliography sections and an Index.YouTube link to smart crow Link to Alex, the grey parrothttps youtu.be p0E1Wny5kCkOctopus escapes lidded jar link to smart apes

  10. says:

    If you read only one book on animal cognition or cognitive ethology, make it this one If you ve read a bunch, as I have, read this anyway There are some that are interesting, or focused, but this is the best current summary of the field, at least for a popular audience that I can find It concisely provides history, anecdotes, references to other works and studies, a look at the future, and plenty of hard science.I sincerely doubt I ll ever read another book published before this As you probably know, I have enjoyed quite a few already, but the field is evolving, methodologies are being refined, younger and diverse scientists have bravely thrown off the shackles of the behavorists and of the dogma of human vs animal, and it s become time we think about Darwin s understanding of comparative intelligence as one of degree, not kind.Exemplar tidbits abound.Think of Clever Hans though it s true that the horse couldn t count, he certainly was smart enough to understand human body language It wasn t just his showman owner who could evoke the right number of hooftaps via cues too subtle for most audiences to see M ale but not female experimenters induce so much stress in mice that it affects their responses This means, of course, that mouse studies conducted by men may have different outcomes M ethodological details matter Re comparing children s abilities to those of apes Since experimenters are supposed to be bland and neutral, they do not engage in niceties This doesn t help make the ape feel at ease and identify with the experimenter Children, however, are encouraged to do so Moreover, only the children are interacting with a member of their own species Examples like that make me admire apes even , because I m beginning to think of them as being able to get along in both ape and human social groups Consider them to be bi lingual, or bi cultural.Re experiments in cooperation, recalling human psychological investigation into game theory and concepts of fairness remember from school or other readings how most humans will react to a peer getting a bigger reward so resentfully that they ll sacrifice their own, smaller reward to take that bigger reward away from the other Well, de Waal and Sarah Brosnan have done further similar studies on primates, and have seen that what is likely really going on is not resentment Rather, it s a strategy towards cooperative equalization of outcomes Apes have even been known to reject an unfair larger reward And re how to measure physical evidence of a smarter brain eg, larger doesn t make humans special, because whales and elephants, etc Each octopus has nearly two thousand suckers, every single one equipped with its own ganglion of half a million neurons on top of a 65 million neuron brain In addition, it has a chain of ganglia along its arms Instead of a single central command like the Internet That makes me admire Montgomery s recent The Soul of an Octopus book even .Juvenile rhesus and stumptail monkeys were placed together for five months These macaques have strikingly different temperaments rhesus are a quarrelsome, noncilatory bunch, whereas stumptails are laid back and pacific After a long period of exposure, the rhesus monkeys developed peacemaking skills on a par with those of their tolerant counterparts Evn after separation from the stumptails, the rhesus showed nearly four times friendly reunions following fights than is typical of their species These new and improved rhesus monkeys confirmed the power of conformism On that happy note, I ll stop giving you free samples of the book, and again encourage you to read it for yourself..I just encountered a children s poem that reminded me of this book, by Aileen Fisher _ Little Talk _Don t you think it s probablethat beetles, bugs, and beestalk about a lot of things you know, such things as these The kind of weather where they livein jungles tall with grassand earthquakes in their villages whenever people pass Of course, we ll never know if bugstalk very much at all,because our ears are far too bigfor talk that is so small.